So, when will you move Scummvm.ini to where it should be...?

[NeXuS]

I don't know, but saving .ini in the windows folder is something from my windows 95 aera

Everypone agrees with that . The discussion here is WHERE to put it, either in some subdir of My Documents, or under the Application Data subdir (which normally is hidden from the user).

Why not directly in the ScummVM directory where the exe is (Windows)?

[Vinterstum]

Why not directly in the ScummVM directory where the exe is (Windows)?

Your suggestion was, I believe, that the savegames and scummvm.ini should go in the ScummVM application directory. That isn't going to happen on a multiuser OS where the current user may not have administrative privileges, and you might have several users using the software. Same reason you don't put user specific config files in /usr/local/share on Unix systems.

[LOGAN]

Yeah that one was answered. However, Im uncertain how games actually handle it

[Vinterstum]

Yeah that one was answered. However, Im uncertain how games actually handle it

I told you, most recent games put the data in either of the locations we're talking about (And/or the registry). Though I'll grant you that it took some time before game developers started implementing the same best practices regarding this as other software.

The guiding principle really, is that all data that's specific to YOU should be in the user profile (c:\documents and settings\username\etc\). Savegames, configuration, documents, projects, etc. This allows you to, for example, preserve everything (all your data) when switching PCs by simply migrating the profile over. Unix systems have the same principle, using home directories.

If you keep stuff like that in the -application- directories, you (the user) would have to manually figure out which specific files contain the configuration and such for each program, and copy them over to the new machine after you've reinstalled the application itself. Not much fun.

[joachimeberhard]

I dont know Oblivion, I know Myst 5, Moment Of Solence, Paradise, Runaway, The Black Mirror, Still Life, Halflife 2, Secret Of The Lost Cavern, Syberia, Journey to the center of the earth, etc etc etc.

They dont use Windows folder (apart from some evil StarFarce copyprotected games :$) Most do use the registry for things.

No modern game requires you to have Administrative rights BECAUSE they don't use the registry anymore and store all the info and settings under My Documents.

In any case, all of the ScummVM supproted HE games store their .ini files in the SAVEGAMES folder set by ScummVM too.
It wouldn't be too smart to put just one of many ini file elsewhere, don't you agree?

Anyhow, the main issue here is that I will not bother helping users not being able to find their savegames and settings anymore, when they are in a *HIDDEN* path nobody knows about.

You CAN place the ScummVM files there, but you have to live with the consequence of many many users who lost their savegames and settings.
Although, if you WANT to spoil it for Windows-Users, feel free to choose APPDATA, put the savegames elsewere, and distribute ScummVM files all around the filesystem.

But I'll stick with whatever old ScummVM version, that does not do so, I promise.

[joachimeberhard]

Yeah that one was answered. However, Im uncertain how games actually handle it

I told you, most recent games put the data in either of the locations we're talking about (And/or the registry).

That's not right, Vinterstum.

Absolutely NO game ever stores ANYTHING in APPDATA.

Not ever.

Edit1:

Ah yes, anyone cared to see where APPDATA is located for Win95/98/ME?

You're right, it's in the WINDOWS directory.

Edit2: And, do you know where it's for NT?

Right again, in the WINDOWS directory!

Edit3: Afaik, Even plain Win95 supports My Documents, for %APPDATA% you will definitely need to install FIRST IE4 and THEN IE5 to get all shellupdates.

[fingolfin]

In any case, all of the ScummVM supproted HE games store their .ini files in the SAVEGAMES folder set by ScummVM too.
It wouldn't be too smart to put just one of many ini file elsewhere, don't you agree?

I don't agree. You are using a false analogy. The ".ini" files of the HE games contain game data, and as such are rather similar to savegames, or the iq-points files created by INDY3, etc..

Anyway, before ScummVM looks at the savegames directory, it has to know where that directory is. To do that, it needs to be able to find the config file. So it is simply impossible to store the config file in the savegames directory, unless we disallow changing the location of the savegames directory completely.

Hence, the config file must be in one (or several) fixed locations. Like the Windows directory (which is of course bad, but fulfills that particular premise), or the current diretory (which often won't be writable), or some other "fixed" location (like APPDATA, or subdirs thereof, etc. etc.).

[joachimeberhard]

Anyway, before ScummVM looks at the savegames directory, it has to know where that directory is. To do that, it needs to be able to find the config file. So it is simply impossible to store the config file in the savegames directory, unless we disallow changing the location of the savegames directory completely.

Well, we neither do nor have to disallow changing the location of both, savegames and ini file.

It's just, where to conveniently put it in the first place.

As I pointed out in my previous post, ironically, %Appdata% points to a subdir of the WINDOWS directory itself in pre Win2000 machines.

It's C:\WINNT\Profiles\%USERNAME%\AppData for NT4 and
C:\WINDOWS\APPDATA for Win95/98/ME and
C:\%SETTINGS%\%USERNAME%\%APPDATA% for Win2k/XP machines.

Ah yes, depending on the CONFIGURATION of WIn95/98/ME (you can switch between one desktop for all users or seperated configuration), the location of %AppData% will change.

Not something I'd call convenient, uniform, easy to remember etc etc.

It's the simple non-caring just-using Windows user I'm concerned about.

And believe me, I have enough experience with either Games and Users (as an Admin), to know that they will NEVER find %AppData% for themselves. PLEASE take that into account.

[fingolfin]

You CAN place the ScummVM files there, but you have to live with the consequence of many many users who lost their savegames and settings.
Although, if you WANT to spoil it for Windows-Users, feel free to choose APPDATA, put the savegames elsewere, and distribute ScummVM files all around the filesystem.

I think you are wildly exaggerating there. So you want 1 default location for both saves and the config file, while others want 2 default locations -- and you call that "all around the filesystem"? I think not .
Anyway, by that logic, should we force users to put all their games into a single game directory, then? After all, right now they can distribute them all around the filesystem, too.

Face it, already now, people are able to change the savepath at will (they can even have a different one for each game, if they wanted to). Personally, I am actually not too fond of that (being a long time mac user, I prefer to follow the KISS principle in such matters -- power users loose a bit, all others find all their savegames in a single spot). But that is simply not the matter we should be discussing here -- rather, we should resolve the matter of the default location of the configuration file. The issue of the (default) savepath is a different one, the code is independant, too -- and adding it in here will just lengthen the discussion but not get us closer to changing anything, I am afraid :-/.

But I'll stick with whatever old ScummVM version, that does not do so, I promise.

Hmm, let's see, what did I learn from Guybrush... "I'm shaking, I'm shaking." Nah How about that one: "I'd be in real trouble if you ever used 'em." .

[Collector]

Everyone agrees with that . The discussion here is WHERE to put it, either in some subdir of My Documents, or under the Application Data subdir (which normally is hidden from the user).

I wouldn't worry if it is hidden or not. Anyone that is likely to manually edit configuration files will surely know how to set file and folder attributes and probably already has things unhidden. With the Mac analogy, the "Application Data" is the "Preferences" folder. I definitely agree with hands off the registry.

[joachimeberhard]

I prefer to follow the KISS principle in such matters -- power users loose a bit, all others find all their savegames in a single spot).

And that's exactly my point.

Being a KISS follower myself, I'd really not like AppPath as location for ScummVM related files.

Simplest way to go would be one single default location for created files, that's it.

And the KISS analogy in that case would be My Documents.

But before using AppPath, I really am for "DO NOTHING".

[Vinterstum]

As I pointed out in my previous post, ironically, %Appdata% points to a subdir of the WINDOWS directory itself in pre Win2000 machines.

It's C:\WINNT\Profiles\%USERNAME%\AppData for NT4 and
C:\WINDOWS\APPDATA for Win95/98/ME and
C:\%SETTINGS%\%USERNAME%\%APPDATA% for Win2k/XP machines.

Ah yes, depending on the CONFIGURATION of WIn95/98/ME (you can switch between one desktop for all users or seperated configuration), the location of %AppData% will change.

From a programming view, the APPDATA variable doesn't exist on pre-Win2k machines. My current patch defaults back to the windows directory on 9x machines, for example. So there's really no inconsistency, just OS differences.

For a user who's used to XP, where do you think it would be most logical for him to go looking for application configuration files? It wouldn't be the Windows directory, and it probably wouldn't be My Documents either.

As to the Applications Data directory being hidden... yep, and with good reason. Configuration files should always be hidden from the casual user, yet -accessible- when needed. That's why config files have a dot in front of them on Unix systems (which hides them), and why the Application Data folder is hidden. The principle is exactly the same.

[joachimeberhard]

As I pointed out in my previous post, ironically, %Appdata% points to a subdir of the WINDOWS directory itself in pre Win2000 machines.

It's C:\WINNT\Profiles\%USERNAME%\AppData for NT4 and
C:\WINDOWS\APPDATA for Win95/98/ME and
C:\%SETTINGS%\%USERNAME%\%APPDATA% for Win2k/XP machines.

Ah yes, depending on the CONFIGURATION of WIn95/98/ME (you can switch between one desktop for all users or seperated configuration), the location of %AppData% will change.

From a programming view, the APPDATA variable doesn't exist on pre-Win2k machines. My current patch defaults back to the windows directory on 9x machines, for example. So there's really no inconsistency, just OS differences.

For a user who's used to XP, where do you think it would be most logical for him to go looking for application configuration files? It wouldn't be the Windows directory, and it probably wouldn't be My Documents either.

As to the Applications Data directory being hidden... yep, and with good reason. Configuration files should always be hidden from the casual user, yet -accessible- when needed. That's why config files have a dot in front of them on Unix systems (which hides them), and why the Application Data folder is hidden. The principle is exactly the same.

Couldn't we just try the other version, the one with the My documents folder ?

[Vinterstum]

This would only affect you if you wanted it to though . With the current patch, if you have your scummvm.ini file in the Windows directory, that's the one that will keep getting used. So unless you delete/move that file yourself, it'll be zero difference.

And 'trying' one location first, then switching to a third would be... slightly confusing to the users

[joachimeberhard]

And 'trying' one location first, then switching to a third would be... slightly confusing to the users

No more than %AppData% though.

Also, users didn't try anything yet.