Is there a way to skip commercial Inc. logos?

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Sat May 03, 2008 10:19 am

Hello,

I want to pack "Lure of the Temptress" for Debian.
(Debian ITP: http://bugs.debian.org/478543 )

However, I have to put it in "non-free" unless I can take
out those commercial Inc. logos (Virgin logo, etc.)

I have read manpages and scummvm --help, but can not find a way to do it.

Is there any tools to remove those logos in lure?

Discussion in debian-legal mailing list:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/20 ... reads.html
(Topic: RFR: Inc. logo in game data )

P.S.
I personal do not want to remove those logos. I just hope lure can be in "main" (free) segment of Debian.

Wen-Yen Chuang (caleb)

dreammaster · Post by **dreammaster** » Sat May 03, 2008 12:04 pm

Well, to disable the starting screens will require you to make changes to the ScummVM source. If you go to the file engines/lure/intro.cpp line 103 - 105, you'll see a loop that cycles through the display of each of the title screens.

You can either comment out those lines, or change the start_screens array defined earlier in the file to specify only a subset of the screens be displayed, such as the final 'game logo' screen (just keep the 0 entry at the end of the list).

fingolfin · Post by **fingolfin** » Sat May 03, 2008 5:58 pm

No offense to anyone intended, but isn't this a bit silly? I mean, the license of the files is clear, no matter what some old pictures in them say. But if there is *any* legal concern about that, then just not showing them wouldn't solve the issue, or would it?

Also, with exception of the screen in FOTAQ displaying that warning about "Unauthorized copying...", I don't quite understand what the harm is in displaying the logos of the creators of these games. They may have released them to the public, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't (morally, mind you, not legally) display them. Giving credit where credit is due...

Anyway, I don't mind if the Debian ScummVM package gets hacked to skip those company logos. I just don't understand why this is necessary, both morally and legally -- but I do understand that you may have to do this because else somebody at Debian gets anal..ytic..., like with Iceweasel vs. Firefox. Ah well. Maybe I am simply not seeing the whole picture

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Sun May 04, 2008 10:16 am

Thanks to dreammaster and fingolfin.

Currently those game data have to be in "non-free" segment of Debian.
The "non-free" only means that it is not free for "Debian Free Software Guidelines".

Anyone still can freely (as a beer) download them from archive of Debian. It is just be labeled as "non-free".

Maybe only Debian people know why it is important for "Debian Free Software Guidelines".

(I am not an Debian Developer, but I think I am an Debian people.)

Post by **eriktorbjorn** » Sun May 04, 2008 11:44 am

caleb wrote:Currently those game data have to be in "non-free" segment of Debian.

I thought both Beneath a Steel Sky and Flight of the Amazon Queen were in main, not non-free.

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Sun May 04, 2008 12:03 pm

eriktorbjorn wrote:I thought both Beneath a Steel Sky and Flight of the Amazon Queen were in main, not non-free.

Because nobody requests bugs for them (yet).

Please see discussions in debian-legal mailing list:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/20 ... reads.html
(Topic: RFR: Inc. logo in game data )

Apo · Post by **Apo** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:14 pm

Hello folks,

sorry for necromancing this old thread but i think it is the best place to raise my questions.

I'm a linux enthusiast and i maintain packages for Debian GNU/Linux. One of my priorities within Debian is to help to improve the games section.

Unfortunately after so many years "Lure of the Temptress" is still not included in Debian Main although the license is considered to be DFSG free.

It seems the main issue are the three logos which are shown in the start sequence. I understand that one solution is to disable the starting screen by patching ScummVM's source.

Would it be also possible to modify the game itself by erasing or replacing the logos? Are there any tools for ScummVM which can help me to modify the game data?

If there wasn't any tools available, would it possible to use an hexeditor like ht

packages.debian.org/sid/ht

though and just to replace the logos with a black screen or something? Where do i have to look for the logos and how can it be achieved?

I know the above might sound silly but i wanted to check whether it is technically possible or impossible to solve this problem. Any hints are much appreciated.

Thanks

Markus

md5 · Post by **md5** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:32 pm

I believe that you can't really skip those screens. The attached license states that, if I'm not mistaken:

"You may distribute this game for free on any medium, provided this license and all associated copyright notices and disclaimers are left intact."

This does include the in-game copyright notices (at least from the way I read this). I don't understand either why you would want to remove the original game author/distributor screens. It just feels wrong. They created this game, and they deserve to be credited, IMHO.

md5 · Post by **md5** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:42 pm

Also: reading through the Debian non-free policy:
http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy ... s-non-free
and DFSG:
http://www.debian.org/social_contract

I fail to see a problem with these splash screens... IANAL, but both the licenses of Lure of the Temptress and Beneath a Steel Sky seem to comply with the Debian License. I don't understand why the company logos need to be removed in this case. They did give away the games for free, why remove them from the credits of their own games?

Apo · Post by **Apo** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:18 pm

Hi,

i'm feeling the same way as you about this issue which should be no issue at all. If i make another attempt to bring Lure into Debian, i will argue like you that the logos are part of the game's copyright notice and that they must not be removed.

But my opinion isn't relevant in the end. What counts is whether the ftp-masters see it the same way like me.

Let's put the controversial things aside and let's assume there are only technical questions.

Is it possible to hack "Lure of the Temptress" and to remove game content like the logos in this case and how can it be done?

cheers

LordHoto · Post by **LordHoto** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:39 pm

Apo wrote: Is it possible to hack "Lure of the Temptress" and to remove game content like the logos in this case and how can it be done?

A bit above dreammaster, who worked on the engine for the game, said:

dreammaster wrote: Well, to disable the starting screens will require you to make changes to the ScummVM source. If you go to the file engines/lure/intro.cpp line 103 - 105, you'll see a loop that cycles through the display of each of the title screens.

You can either comment out those lines, or change the start_screens array defined earlier in the file to specify only a subset of the screens be displayed, such as the final 'game logo' screen (just keep the 0 entry at the end of the list).

md5 · Post by **md5** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:52 pm

Non-technical/ethical bit:
Again, this is WRONG, and it's against the original game license(s) - i.e. don't do it, the people who liberated the game(s) won't be too happy with this move.

The right way would be to contact the people responsible for uploading these zip files to the Debian repository, and not remove these screens without a (very) good reason. Removing credits from free software is, IMHO, against the spirit of FLOSS. So the whole argument here is moot: the software in question has been liberated, do not tamper with it and remove the credits to the company who made it just to move it to another repository. It's just bad practice, IMHO unethical and should be frowned upon.

Technical bit:
Yes, it's possible - refer to dreammaster's comment above. The file he's talking about (regarding Lure of the Temptress) is here:
https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/blob ... /intro.cpp

The IDs of the intro screens are in the start_screens array. At a guess, these seem to be:
0x18 - Revolution Logo
0x1A - Virgin Logo
0x1E - Present a Virtual Theater game
0x1C - Lure of the Temptress screen

So, if I understood this right, you can change line 39 from:
static const uint16 start_screens[] = {0x18, 0x1A, 0x1E, 0x1C, 0};
to:
static const uint16 start_screens[] = {0x1E, 0x1C, 0};
to remove the first two screens (and once again, please don't do it...)

somaen · Post by **somaen** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:37 pm

Isn't this basically a variation of the age-old BSD-license with crediting-problem? (i.e. whether stuff licensed in a way that requires accreditation is truly FLOSS).

Apo · Post by **Apo** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:19 pm

Non-technical/ethical bit:

Again, i agree with you. The original concern was that the Virgin Logo is non-free because it is a trademark of a different company than Revolution Software Ltd. who issued this license and made their game freely available.

Here is an interesting comment from James "Ender" Brown

bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=478898#25

who wrote the license.

So i say it again, the license is DFSG free and Beneath a steel sky is also part of Debian Main and the same Virgin logo appears during the start sequence. Nothing indicates Lure should be treated otherwise but that's simply my opinion.

Technical bit

Thanks for your answer. I saw Dreammaster's post above. My question was more about, is it possible to modify the game data itself. I mean all the disk.vga files which are available for download. As far as i understand it, please correct me if i'm wrong, that's new ScummVM code in intro.cpp and you simply "read" content with it.

My new package would simply consist of these *.vga files and lure.dat which are all covered by the same BSD-like license. FYI, i have just reopened bug #478543 again.

bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=478543

md5 · Post by **md5** » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:28 pm

somaen wrote:Isn't this basically a variation of the age-old BSD-license with crediting-problem? (i.e. whether stuff licensed in a way that requires accreditation is truly FLOSS).

No, not in this case. In this case we got a game with a given kind of license and credits, and the idea is to ditch all that and create a new kind of license.

<rant>The reasoning here is the need to please some guys who disagree with the way a previously commercial game has now been liberated and is given for free and wish to remove the original game credits in order to make it adhere to their ideas of what's truly FLOSS.</rant>

Also, if you read The Debian Free Software Guidelines, clause 10:

The GPL, BSD, and Artistic licenses are examples of licenses that we consider free.

http://www.debian.org/social_contract

GPL clearly states that:

You can certainly get credit for the work. Part of releasing a program under the GPL is writing a copyright notice in your own name (assuming you are the copyright holder). The GPL requires all copies to carry an appropriate copyright notice.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IWantCredit

The MIT and BSD license clearly state that:

The main purpose of both these licenses is to allow people to use, distribute, and modify your code, but preserve your copyright credit, license method, and disclaimer of warranties.

http://www.rebol.com/docs/bsd-mit-license.html

So, it doesn't make sense to COMPLETELY REMOVE copyright credits without any reason at all. It's just illogical, and wrong.

Is there a way to skip commercial Inc. logos?

Is there a way to skip commercial Inc. logos?

Lure of the Temptress for Debian Linux