just got a thread closed cause they say ScummVm is piracy?!?

Ace2020Boyd · Post by **Ace2020Boyd** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:17 am

On gametrailers.com i got my thread closed and i have no idea why. http://forums.gametrailers.com/showthread.php?t=454916

(well i told the guy what scummvm is about and he is re-opening it)edit 12:21am)

thankfully they didnt get my other one help keep that one alive http://forums.gametrailers.com/showthread.php?t=454914

Ceri Cat · Post by **Ceri Cat** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:13 am

Well in a very strict interpretation SCUMM VM is breach of copyright, though I wouldn't call it piracy, if you pay full attention to the EULA you agreed to with most of your games you'll note the line that you will not reverse engineer the code without authorization. Unfortunately it's hard to get support from people such as Lucasarts for any sort of project, let alone one that threatens control of their IP in their viewpoint.

clem · Post by **clem** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:55 am

Ceri Cat wrote:Well in a very strict interpretation SCUMM VM is breach of copyright, though I wouldn't call it piracy, if you pay full attention to the EULA you agreed to with most of your games you'll note the line that you will not reverse engineer the code without authorization.

In a strict interpretation, I didn't have to click an EULA when I installed these games under DOS.
As far as I remember the legalspeak back in the DOS days only prohibited copying the data.

fingolfin · Post by **fingolfin** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:17 am

There is nothing in the "EULA" for most (all) of the games we support, which would make it illegal to reverse engineer them. The RE legal problems are mostly country specific, see e.g. the DMCA. All in all, though, a company which would try to sue us based on the fact that we REed various engines, would have serious legal issues, and it is almost certain that they would loose (at least in the US), based on previous legal actions in similar directions.

Personally, I am 100% confident that nothing ScummVM does is illegal, nor morally wrong. In particular, we do *not* hurt the creators of these games, nor the right owners, rather the contrary is the case.

Post by **eriktorbjorn** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:56 am

clem wrote: As far as I remember the legalspeak back in the DOS days only prohibited copying the data.

When did the "no reverse engineering" clauses start appearing? The only EULAs I have within reach at the moment are the ones for Microsoft Windows (2004), which forbids reverse engineering except for what's allowed by local law, and the one for Mission Critical (1995), which doesn't mention it at all.

(The Mission Critical EULA is actually worth reading, by the way.)

fingolfin · Post by **fingolfin** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:00 am

LOL, that is one hilarious EULA

Thanks for sharing that, Torbjörn

clem · Post by **clem** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:21 am

haha

but, did you infringe on their copyright of the EULA by posting it here?

Ceri Cat · Post by **Ceri Cat** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:27 am

I have no disputes about the morality if I did I wouldn't use SCUMM VM. You don't condone or support piracy.

As far as it goes though installation of said games constitutes agreeing to the license agreement this has been argued frequently in courts of law and the verdict is usually that despite the agreement being in the manual you're held to it.

I'd suggest if you have a copy of the manual still handy for Full Throttle flipping through to about page 10 (CD insert manual anyway) and look at the second column at the segment beginning with (6). I agree it's not in all of the games. But I recall it being a common inclusion in Lucasarts' agreements though I'd hate to dig out all the adventure games' manuals I own to go searching for one clause. Part of the restriction on RE comes in trying to protect their trade secrets (iMUSE being patented was one).

Their viewpoint though is flawed as they tend to treat things like SCUMM VM as affecting their income (you actually have to make an effort to protect your copyright sadly as under certain legal systems failure to do so constitutes abandonment of your rights as the copyright holder) instead of embracing it as an asset in producing a new run on their software as there are still ways to get the games to work. This is where Revolution have shown their fan support and I can't say I've seen them suffer for opening up to the team.

I have no problems with SCUMM VM as a game developer personally, I was merely stating that SCUMM VM under IP laws in some regions is not always considered legal. If I ever get back into development properly and finish the coding for the adventure engine I started on before Cadogan closed doors in my own time I'd have no trouble opening up the source to you, though in theory it should still be 100% functional under modern Windows OSes it was never designed to be portable to other OSes as I was working on the engine to try to push my boss into releasing a few high quality adventure games and I never really got into working on cross platform code back then, as trying to push a game that supported anything besides Windows to my boss would have been suicidal for the project. *shrugs* The artists and I still have never quite worked out what was going on in his head.

Post by **eriktorbjorn** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:02 am

clem wrote:but, did you infringe on their copyright of the EULA by posting it here?

I probably did. Though I haven't ever heard of a company suing anyone for willfully informing others about their intellectual property rights.

zorbid · Post by **zorbid** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:48 am

I remember an article on Slashdot (can't find the link) about a company suing users for copyright infringement for having published a cease and desist letter on the Web... IIRC, it won.

Ceri Cat · Post by **Ceri Cat** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:00 pm

Info on it from techdirt I do have however zorbid.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/200801 ... 0575.shtml

Tim20 · Post by **Tim20** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:18 am

This is totally off-topic and it may have been asked before, but i just want something cleared up. Because the thread title is about piracy etc. i just thought it was the right sort of thread to post this, but...

How did the ScummVM team manage to get the source code, for the LucasArts games, implemented into the engine? Did you have to ask LucasArts permission? I imagine this was the case but i could never imagine them agreeing.

I know the ScummVM team got the ok from Revolution Software to implement the source for Lure, Beneath and Broken, so...

Ta.

Ceri Cat · Post by **Ceri Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:06 am

In simple terms they never got permission or the source code given to them. They had to reverse engineer SCUMM. Lucasarts have I believe at one point in the past sent a C&D to the team, but never followed up on it. I believe the AGI support was similarly reverse engineered as Sierra's ultimate owners would never give permission either from my experience.

Getting the source code and permission is a nice approach but not always possible.

fingolfin · Post by **fingolfin** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:42 pm

This is not quite correct: LucasArts *did* send us a C&D, but *not* because of our reverse engineering efforts. Rather, they alleged that we were distributing copies of their games. Which we of course didn't.

They withdrew the C&D subsequently.

Ceri Cat · Post by **Ceri Cat** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:56 pm

Thanks for the correction Fin.