Thoughts on the App Store

[sev]

Also, I've got one more (pretty quick'n dirty) idea. It does depend on this question: Is ScummVM able to detect whether a savegame is valid or corrupt (without crashing )?

Unfortunately. no. Well, it still could be possible in some cases, but again, with too much effort. I.e. we will need to: (1) Get every kind of such saves (2) analyze what's wrong with them (3) implement detection.

Most of the saves which are problematic have things like some temporary state of some parts which are not handled by script-accessible variables, i.e. some parts of the engine are not saved intentionally. Thus it would be really difficult to fix.

And over again, in case of Gob engine the efforts of adding even autosave to them will be enormous.


Eugene

[edken]

Hi, its been mentioned that there are some games for which an auto save function would not work for. I was wondering which games it would work for, or at least would not be impossible to implement(albeit with a lot of work at some point in the future if anyone was willing to undertake it).
The ones that spring to mind are of cause the Monkey Island and Broken Sword games. I gather that the cut scenes pose a problem?

[edken]

It seems the way to do it is to become such a massive company (and it doesn't hurt to have a competitor to the iPhone with your name on it). Google admits that it broke the rules for how apps work on the iPhone, see this link..http://www.dailytech.com/Googles+IPhone ... e13536.htm

[Uber Dowzen]

Ok first up, I love ScummVM. Just for the record...

I'd like to clarify, does ScummVM need the executable file from the adventure game to run (e.g. it's not like Frotz where only the file which contains the adventure needs to be read)?

When you refer to certain engines not supporting autosaving, do you mean different versions of scummvm like, say the Wii port?

Also in regard to the fact that Frotz (possibly) only got through by Apple breaking their own rules, surely this is the point of having apps for the store be approved? If you steal something, you have to go to court before you can be charged. This because our laws are not perfect and the specific situation must be addressed. The fact is, Apple can't write a perfect EULA, so surely if they allowed ScummVM through that would just mean those are features which they have no problem with.

If that made no sense please say so and I'll try and word it better.

Finally, with the open source problem, why not just take the most recent version of ScummVM and get the person(s) with the iPhone SDK to port it. That way it's still an open source program, but none of apples precious secrets have been leaked.

P.S. I'm not going to jailbreak my iPod Touch.

[md5]

I'd like to clarify, does ScummVM need the executable file from the adventure game to run (e.g. it's not like Frotz where only the file which contains the adventure needs to be read)?

No, ScummVM does not need the original executables of the games, it replaces them.

When you refer to certain engines not supporting autosaving, do you mean different versions of scummvm like, say the Wii port?

ScummVM contains many engine plugins, each one responsible for running specific games. For example, the SCUMM engine runs Lucasarts certain adventure games and Humongous games, the KYRA engine runs certain Westwood adventure games and so on.

Also in regard to the fact that Frotz (possibly) only got through by Apple breaking their own rules, surely this is the point of having apps for the store be approved? If you steal something, you have to go to court before you can be charged. This because our laws are not perfect and the specific situation must be addressed. The fact is, Apple can't write a perfect EULA, so surely if they allowed ScummVM through that would just mean those are features which they have no problem with.

If that made no sense please say so and I'll try and word it better.

Erm, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here...

Finally, with the open source problem, why not just take the most recent version of ScummVM and get the person(s) with the iPhone SDK to port it. That way it's still an open source program, but none of apples precious secrets have been leaked.

The problem isn't about compiling ScummVM with Apple's iPhone SDK. It's that Apple has restricted certain features in their SDK which are needed for ScummVM.

[Uber Dowzen]

Ok first...

Apple have made the rules for the EULA fairly broad. Doesn't that mean that they have done this so that they can stop apps in that they don't like? ScummVM doesn't do anything that apple objects to, so even though it technically breaks the rules, it doesn't break the rules in a way that apple would take issue with.

On the whole I'm just saying that Apple won't have any problem with ScummVM (having let in Frotz) and that the rules are broad so that they won't get in trouble for not allowing in certain apps. I don't think that Apple has some kind of personal vendetta against ScummVM and are trying to keep it out at all costs, in fact I think Apple would consider it one of their top apps.

With the save thing why not just start with the engines which work with the auto saving and then move on to fixing the ones that there is an issue for?

[fingolfin]

OK, first off, all you are saying (and what I am replying to below) ignores the *techincal* problems with using the official Apple SDK and the AppStore, which IMO are the primary reasons for not using them. But I personally also have other reasons why I would prefer to boycott the AppStore, listed below.

Ok first...

Apple have made the rules for the EULA fairly broad. Doesn't that mean that they have done this so that they can stop apps in that they don't like? ScummVM doesn't do anything that apple objects to, so even though it technically breaks the rules, it doesn't break the rules in a way that apple would take issue with.

Yeah, right. They put the rule in so that they could stop Adobe and Sun from making apps adding support for Java and Flash, and not for stopping ScummVM or Frotz. True enough, so they probably would ignore us just they ignore Frotz.

I personally (being a long time Apple "fan" and Mac user, BTW), am appalled by this, and don't want to support it. If Apple wants the cake, they better eat it, too.

On the whole I'm just saying that Apple won't have any problem with ScummVM (having let in Frotz) and that the rules are broad so that they won't get in trouble for not allowing in certain apps. I don't think that Apple has some kind of personal vendetta against ScummVM and are trying to keep it out at all costs, in fact I think Apple would consider it one of their top apps.

So because ScummVM would be hypothetically a "top app" for Apple (possibly boosting their iPhone sales, although I personally would doubt that), we should knowingly violate their license and rely on them ignoring this violation because it suits them? Hmmm... Sure, could do that. And I can understand that people would like us to do that. But I *personally* (and other team members may very well disagree with me there) have moral problems with that.

Oh, and also I feel that the AppStore system violates the GPL if not in law then at least in spirit. The GPL asks that everybody should be able to make their own version of ScummVM (say, to test a daily version). With the AppStore, only the ScummVM team (in fact, only the iPhone porter of the team) could make and distribute binaries. .

With the save thing why not just start with the engines which work with the auto saving and then move on to fixing the ones that there is an issue for?

Sadly, it is not something you can "fix" in the engines. It's just not possible the way they are designed. Well, of course it's not impossible -- it's just a bit like "fixing" a car to fly .

[Uber Dowzen]

Yeah, right. They put the rule in so that they could stop Adobe and Sun from making apps adding support for Java and Flash, and not for stopping ScummVM or Frotz. True enough, so they probably would ignore us just they ignore Frotz.

I personally (being a long time Apple "fan" and Mac user, BTW), am appaled by this, and don't want to support it. If Apple wants the cake, they better eat it, too.

Presumably Apple have their own reasons for not wanting Java and Flash on the iPhone, but I get why this would make you want to boycott the appstore (and while we are on the note of boycotting in general LET ME PUT MY DVDS ON MY IPOD).
On a side note, does anyone know why they don't want Java and Flash on the iPhone?

A point I'd like to make about the autosaving is I don't think it would give it a bad rep. Fallout 3 on PC constantly crashes, sometimes during conversations which you can't save during. When this happens, I lose a lot of my progress and have to do it again. I still think Fallout 3 is a fantastic game though. And surely having ScummVM on the appstore with the reputation of being "that game that you lose all your progress in when you get a phone call" is better than the reputation of being "that hardcore game that you have to jailbreak your phone for".

Finally (to finish off my rant ), you said earlier in the forum that jailbreaking isn't illegal. However in my opinion:

a)it is against the spirit of the Warranty.

b)a lot of people jailbreak there iPhones but then when it breaks down, reset it (killing all traces of the phone being jailbroken), and then try and get apple to fix it (which is illegal, even though apple can't prove it).

Have you actually tried making a version with the SDK and sending it to apple?

Anyway, if the ScummVM team doesn't want to make an Appstore version, I'm cool with that. It's your project and you should do what you feel is right.

[jvprat]

Oh, and also I feel that the AppStore system violates the GPL if not in law then at least in spirit. The GPL asks that everybody should be able to make their own version of ScummVM (say, to test a daily version). With the AppStore, only the ScummVM team (in fact, only the iPhone porter of the team) could make and distribute binaries. .

If I recall correctly, this is exactly what motivated the creation of the GPL v3. If we really want to explicitly forbid distributing binaries that the user can't replace with his own version, we should probably consider migrating to the GPL v3.

[fingolfin]

Oh, and also I feel that the AppStore system violates the GPL if not in law then at least in spirit. The GPL asks that everybody should be able to make their own version of ScummVM (say, to test a daily version). With the AppStore, only the ScummVM team (in fact, only the iPhone porter of the team) could make and distribute binaries. .

If I recall correctly, this is exactly what motivated the creation of the GPL v3. If we really want to explicitly forbid distributing binaries that the user can't replace with his own version, we should probably consider migrating to the GPL v3.

Yeah, in fact I am very much interested in that. Though in this case, it might even be covered by the GPL v2. Sadly, it's quite difficult for us to change the license. I.e. drop the GPL v2 license part.

[fingolfin]

A point I'd like to make about the autosaving is I don't think it would give it a bad rep. Fallout 3 on PC constantly crashes, sometimes during conversations which you can't save during. When this happens, I lose a lot of my progress and have to do it again. I still think Fallout 3 is a fantastic game though. And surely having ScummVM on the appstore with the reputation of being "that game that you lose all your progress in when you get a phone call" is better than the reputation of being "that hardcore game that you have to jailbreak your phone for".

Maybe, maybe not. In the end though, I take pride in making high quality software. Knowingly releasing something as deeply flawed, when there is a good way to avoid that flaw but Apple *forbids me* to do so, is revolting in my eyes. And even if people would not care, I still would care and would feel ashamed.

Finally (to finish off my rant ), you said earlier in the forum that jailbreaking isn't illegal. However in my opinion:

a)it is against the spirit of the Warranty.

b)a lot of people jailbreak there iPhones but then when it breaks down, reset it (killing all traces of the phone being jailbroken), and then try and get apple to fix it (which is illegal, even though apple can't prove it).

I see your point. So, you cannot use ScummVM on your iPhone. Very sorry for that, but it's Apple who chose to make the iPhone so unattractive to people who do not want to earn money with their software (thus are not willing to make arbitrary sacrifices), believe in open source (and the right for everybody to make modifications), and do not want to compromise the quality of their software to act as lapdog for Apple :-/.

Have you actually tried making a version with the SDK and sending it to apple?

Anyway, if the ScummVM team doesn't want to make an Appstore version, I'm cool with that. It's your project and you should do what you feel is right.

Thank you. I am pretty sure that if we submitted an SDK version to Apple, it has a good chance of being accepted (modulo the randomness generator they seem to have in there, too). That's not the point, though.

[eriktorbjorn]

Sadly, it's quite difficult for us to change the license. I.e. drop the GPL v2 license part.

Changing the license to GPL v3 should be fairly straightforward, actually:

Code: Select all

 * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
 * modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License
 * as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2
 * of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

So we wouldn't need written permission from everyone, alive or dead, who ever wrote anything for ScummVM, and their little dogs too. Of course, developers could decide to stay with the "GPL v2 or later" version. Or they might just leave in disgust. Both would be awkward, or possibly even damaging. I don't know if anyone really feels that strongly about it, though.

[Uber Dowzen]

Ok, just a final point.

If you're going to boycott the appstore, why don't you tell Apple? If they know that this fantastic App is not going on the appstore with the SDK rules you object to, they might change them. I don't think this is as nuts as it sounds. If ScummVM isn't on the Appstore, more people jailbreak their iPhones and iPods to get it. Apple really don't want this.

There's no point in boycotting if what you're boycotting doesn't even know you're boycotting it.

[FPy]

Now, FOTAQ is available on the AppStore (not for free).

So fingolfin can now see that it was possible, nothing was wrong, but you didn't want to try!
Perhaps you could say what are _your_ reasons for not releasing it in the AppStore (and not hiding yourself behind Apple rules).

BTW, the latest excuse you found was that Apple prohibits downloading contents from an application, so let me search on my iPod (not jailbreaked):
- 1Password
- Air Sharing
- Pocket Money
- Tap Tap Revenge
- Stanza
- Outliner
- Handbase
- Ultimate ToDo
... should have been banned by Apple!
Shame Apple! You are not able to see that all this applications import some sort of contents on the iPhone/iPod Touch?

PS: Perhaps I am a little bit angry today, please excuse me!

[Vinterstum]

Now, FOTAQ is available on the AppStore (not for free).

So fingolfin can now see that it was possible, nothing was wrong, but you didn't want to try!
Perhaps you could say what are _your_ reasons for not releasing it in the AppStore (and not hiding yourself behind Apple rules).

BTW, the latest excuse you found was that Apple prohibits downloading contents from an application, so let me search on my iPod (not jailbreaked):
- 1Password
- Air Sharing
- Pocket Money
- Tap Tap Revenge
- Stanza
- Outliner
- Handbase
- Ultimate ToDo
... should have been banned by Apple!
Shame Apple! You are not able to see that all this applications import some sort of contents on the iPhone/iPod Touch?

PS: Perhaps I am a little bit angry today, please excuse me!

Useless post. What's with the tone? If you'd read this thread a little bit more carefully, and the FOTAQ thread as well (btw, why resurrect this one?), you'd know that what's against the EULA is for an app to download -executable- code. Which none of the apps you list, do. Nor does FOTAQ, since the game comes bundled with ScummVM.

Note that this isn't just the opinion of fingolfin, but also of me (and I'm maintaining the iPhone port).