Lucasarts adventures on Steam!

[laffer]

I guess it's impossible to use an MT-32 with these Steam releases?

[ZakMcRofl]

This is concerning the decision to purposely not support steam bought game files (sev's post):

I really do not follow your reasoning? After all these years there is finally a cheap, direct and easy way to legally obtain those game files. In the past, many people had to (or just did) resort to piracy to easily download those files.

Now that the legal option is there, you'll not support it?
I respect you for all the work you put into this but why do you suddenly stop caring about your users simply because ScummVM was mentioned on the LucasArts twitter?

The option to play those games on all platforms is already there, all that you're limiting is the user's choice on how to obtain the game data.

On more question:
Are you going to stop supporting/developing/porting for Wii if official Wii ports come out? Why are you even considering to support this form of "customer milking"? Should customers have to pay extra each time they want to play a game they own on a different device?
Wasn't this the very idea of ScummVM, to allow people to play the games they legally own on any device of their choice?

I'm sorry but I just cannot see how this is in the spirit of open source. What kind of "contact" from LucasArts do you expect? Permission? Contract to make official <insert Device> ports for money?
I realize that having some kind of official deal would have a positive effect on developer's ego (and maybe budget) but I fail to see how it would benefit the free/open side of the project.

Sorry if this all sounds to negative but I'm honestly curious on how you'll answer those questions.

[LogicDeLuxe]

In order not to threaten ScummVM, why not just have a standalone data file extractor separately (not even in the main tools download)? Once you have the missing file, the games shouldn't be any different from the old releases, except for CD audio, I guess.

I suspect that questions about the Steam versions will arise just as frequently as questions violating rule 0.

Some of LucasArts decissions seem strange anyway.
What's the point in including the DOS executables when there are files missing which they expect to be there?
And why not porting the Indy3 FM-Towns version to Windows? It won't be any more complicate than porting Loom without using real CD audio, I think.

[Morden]

Now that the legal option is there, you'll not support it?
I respect you for all the work you put into this but why do you suddenly stop caring about your users simply because ScummVM was mentioned on the LucasArts twitter?

For now, when you buy those games via Steam, you can't play them any other way but through Steam, which means LucasArts are getting their share of the profit.

If ScummVM is updated to support those files, they would no longer need Steam to function, thus making them easily copyable. Not that one can't obtain those title illegally already, but I hope you get my point and that's what LucasArts might have a problem with.

It would be nice if LucasArts made an official statement. If they have nothing against it, then fine. Until they do, I wouldn't want the ScummVM team having any problems because of this. Would you?

[jg]

Are you going to stop supporting/developing/porting for Wii if official Wii ports come out? Why are you even considering to support this form of "customer milking"? Should customers have to pay extra each time they want to play a game they own on a different device?

Just a note from an innocent bystander: It's not customer milking if they don't already own it. If a person already owns the old floppies or CDs, they can use ScummVM. If they don't, and they have a PC, they can buy it on Steam. If they have a Wii, they can buy it there when those ports come out. If the customer has another platform, then maybe LucasArts are preparing to sell ports for that, and won't enjoy having sunk money into those projects just to have it subverted by ScummVM.

I think backing off and waiting to see what LucasArts have planned for these games is a good thing. If it turns out that Steam is the only way for people to buy the games, then I'll agree that ScummVM should support these data files.

[Morden]

If they have a Wii, they can buy it there when those ports come out.

Plus, it's not like every single Wii owner has the homebrew channel with ScummVM installed. The percent of people running homebrew on Nintendo's console is so low, nobody would even care what does ScummVM support.

[eriktorbjorn]

why not just have a standalone data file extractor separately

One possible problem, I imagine, would be that either it would have to do a brute-force search for the data, or it would have to be updated every time the games are patched. (From what I hear, the Steam version of The Dig has already been patched once to fix some showstopping bug.)

So to me it makes sense to wait and see, at least for a while.

[ZakMcRofl]

@Morden:
Of course I don't want the scummVM team to get into problems. But why would they? As they said, it is completely legal to make those games run in an emulator. The games have been on sale before so the availability on steam should really not make any difference except convenience and possibly lower price compared to retail.

@jg:
My point is that the first person (that bought/buys the floppy or CD) will be able to play on EVERY device he owns. The second person (that buys it for steam) will not get the same benefit. This does not make sense to me, especially since it seems to be very easy to make the steam version work with scummVM. By that logic, why was scummVM even made or why was it ported to other devices.

[sev]

Now that the legal option is there, you'll not support it?
I respect you for all the work you put into this but why do you suddenly stop caring about your users simply because ScummVM was mentioned on the LucasArts twitter?

We? Stop caring? Look, new version will be out soon, as it was in last several years, we continue contributing to the project, fixing bugs, implementing feature requests. What do you mean?

The option to play those games on all platforms is already there, all that you're limiting is the user's choice on how to obtain the game data.

Talk to LucasArts, not us. It is their business to release these games for non-Windows devices.

Currently we just do not want to interfere with any plans from them, at least until something will be heard from them in this regard.

Are you going to stop supporting/developing/porting for Wii if official Wii ports come out? Why are you even considering to support this form of "customer milking"? Should customers have to pay extra each time they want to play a game they own on a different device?

Again, wrong target. Ask LucasArts about this. Complain to them.

I'm sorry but I just cannot see how this is in the spirit of open source. What kind of "contact" from LucasArts do you expect? Permission? Contract to make official <insert Device> ports for money?

You're mixing the concepts here. Nobody prevents you from creating a fork and do whatever you want.

ScummVM is open source, driven by volunteers, and there is nothing which can force us to do or not do something.

I realize that having some kind of official deal would have a positive effect on developer's ego (and maybe budget)

Huh?


Eugene

[jg]

@jg:
My point is that the first person (that bought/buys the floppy or CD) will be able to play on EVERY device he owns. The second person (that buys it for steam) will not get the same benefit. This does not make sense to me, especially since it seems to be very easy to make the steam version work with scummVM. By that logic, why was scummVM even made or why was it ported to other devices.

In both cases you list, the customer has bought a license for a game for a specific platform. Both customers have the same expectations and get the same value.

However, in many cases, the old platform on which the first customer's games were playable is now outdated or obsolete. For all intents and purposes, his games are no longer playable. ScummVM makes unplayable games playable again. I think we can agree that's the core reason the project exists. In that respect, it also makes sense to port ScummVM so people can play the games on their favourite platform, or whatever platform they have available.

The Steam games are already playable. If you buy them, you'd expect them to work on your Windows machine. I don't think it follows that just because you can't play those games on all platforms, they should be added to ScummVM.

If in the future the Steam games are rendered unplayable because technology has moved on, then ScummVM should definitely support them.

[ZakMcRofl]

By "stop caring about your users" I meant the case mentioned in my previous post, where the user that buys the floppy/CD version gets preferential treatment over the (equally honest) steam buyer. I wanted to point out the lack of care about the later.

I read that you do not want to interfere with their plans but I do not understand why? I don't see what changed when LucasArts released on steam compared to before.

And my comment about milking was in reference to the fact that you (sev) seem to want to encourage this by not making the steam game data portable to other devices. Implicitly your post (IMHO) sends out the message that scummVM will not allow users to take their steam gamedata and use it on other devices unless LucasArts gives you permission.

Its good to know that you're open to forks because ultimately it might lead to one if scummVM won't change this stance. You're right that nobody can force you to do anything but that doesn't mean I can't try to convince you that your reasoning is flawed.

Finally my comment about ego & budget was based on your blog entry that mentions that "We do not want to interfere with their sales and/or any upcoming plans for other platforms. Also we are really open for cooperation in this regard and will be more than happy to make any upcoming releases run with use of ScummVM."
Maybe I misread this part but to me it seems like you're offering to help on those official ports to other platforms. Which would undoubtedly be great for the project image and/or developer ego (and budget if compensated) but IMHO this also means that you're holding off "steam-support" out of a fear that this might prevent potential deals. If that is the case I am a little worried that it might lead to future withholding, for example of support for newer games, in exchange for good relations with a company.

@jg (you posted while i wrote this):
Thanks you for this argument, it is somewhat convincing, I'll admit that. However by that logic only making them available for Windows (for example) would have been enough to make them playable again. It also does not explain why ScummVM keeps working on games that are already natively working under current windows versions (like MI3). As far as I can tell over the years the motivation has expanded from "make this run again" to "make this run on as many devices as possible".

[Flo]

I don't see what changed when LucasArts released on steam compared to before.

A lot of the games supported by ScummVM were only available on the second hand market prior to the Steam re-releases. Now LucasArts has shown an active interest in selling these games again, and possibly on platforms not previously (officially) supported.

[LordHoto]

And why not porting the Indy3 FM-Towns version to Windows? It won't be any more complicate than porting Loom without using real CD audio, I think.

I doubt that now, first of all the FM-Towns did use probably some tricks to allow proper Japanese font rendering, using the FM-Towns hardware capabilities for that comes to mind.

Next the FM-Towns does include different sound data. I'm not familiar with SCUMM internals, but depending on that it might be hard to replace them with DOS version's MIDI data, which can be played even on modern machines.

And of course the FM-Towns ports could've been done by third parties, which maybe have rights on the ports code too. I don't know about that too.

As you see this are just my guesses, which makes using the FM-Towns data harder.

Its good to know that you're open to forks because ultimately it might lead to one if scummVM won't change this stance. You're right that nobody can force you to do anything but that doesn't mean I can't try to convince you that your reasoning is flawed.

I seriously doubt anyone would fork ScummVM, just because we do not supply an extraction tool for the static data included in LEC's executables. Most probably people will just release such tools third party and people will use it to make their Steam datafiles running under ScummVM IMHO.

[ZakMcRofl]

I seriously doubt anyone would fork ScummVM, just because we do not supply an extraction tool for the static data included in LEC's executables. Most probably people will just release such tools third party and people will use it to make their Steam datafiles running under ScummVM IMHO.

Yes, I agree, the specific issue at hand seems to be fixable by an external tool (which would also prevent negative press about scummVM). Maybe that's the way to go, someone *cough* unrelated to scummVM *cough* makes an extractor and we have the best of both worlds. I might just code it myself (yes, I am capable of doing more productive things than doing a rant on a forum )

[LordHoto]

Yes, I agree, the specific issue at hand seems to be fixable by an external tool (which would also prevent negative press about scummVM). Maybe that's the way to go, someone *cough* unrelated to scummVM *cough* makes an extractor and we have the best of both worlds. I might just code it myself (yes, I am capable of doing more productive things than doing a rant on a forum :)

Actually I don't really fear negative press about ScummVM, just because we do not support Steam releases of LEC games immediately.

And probably all those sellers on ebay out there selling overpriced LEC games for use with ScummVM, will love for us for this too ;-).