The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes - support?

clone2727 · Post by **clone2727** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:48 pm

DrMcCoy wrote:[*]Grab either the IDA Pro 4.9 freeware or IDA Pro 5.5 demo

I recommend freeware so you can save your work, which last I checked didn't work in the demo.

MeddlingMonk · Post by **MeddlingMonk** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:28 pm

Nikioko wrote:I cannot remember that Prof. Moriarty ever used the pseudonyms Major Misteray oder Mr. Spacemaker.

Of course, Moriarty never used any aliases in Final Problem. The alias of the Major was just the developers being cute and creating a mystery where none was really needed, I think.

And Spacemaker/Spaßmacher wasn't used by the Major but by Pratt's male lover (described by the landlady as being as 'pretty as any girl', not a description I'd give to a middle-aged man).

What makes you think the Major resembles Sidney Paget, except for the lack of hair?

The Major doesn't resemble Sidney Paget. He resembles, very strongly, the illustration of Professor Moriarty that Paget did for The Final Problem when originally published in The Strand Magazine. This is what I'm talking about:

I think that if you can compare that to the Major's sprite in the game, you'll see the similarity.

The picture in the offeice doesn't look like any portrait picture of Napoléon I know, and that are quite some.

I agree that the portrait doesn't look like Napoleon. Actually, I don't think it looks like much of anything at all. But if you examine it, the description says it's a portrait of Napoleon so that's what it must be.

I thought that they were two different criminals.

OK. I think you're wrong, but you think I may be wrong, and so what of it?

Well, I'd rather like to play a real good Holmes game again. The current Frogwares series is quite crappy...

Just about every Holmes game is crap. Or a cop out like that Infocom game. I think that's partly because developers just make generic detective stories and slap a Holmes label on it. Then again, Holmes is a genius and a drug addict with a lot of other unlikable characteristics. That's a hard thing to build an interactive experience around.

Nikioko · Post by **Nikioko** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:16 pm

MeddlingMonk wrote: And Spacemaker/Spaßmacher wasn't used by the Major but by Pratt's male lover (described by the landlady as being as 'pretty as any girl', not a description I'd give to a middle-aged man).

OK, Spacemaker is Vincent. I got that wrong in my remembrance.

The Major doesn't resemble Sidney Paget. He resembles, very strongly, the illustration of Professor Moriarty that Paget did for The Final Problem when originally published in The Strand Magazine. This is what I'm talking about:

I think that if you can compare that to the Major's sprite in the game, you'll see the similarity.

OK, he is partially bald. Like many men in the middle ages.

But I can't see any other similiarities.

I agree that the portrait doesn't look like Napoleon. Actually, I don't think it looks like much of anything at all. But if you examine it, the description says it's a portrait of Napoleon so that's what it must be.

Well, ok, that might be true. I just took a look atthe picture and didn't find any resemblance to any Napoléon painting I know. I didn't remember that Holmes says that it is such a picture if you look at it.

OK. I think you're wrong, but you think I may be wrong, and so what of it?

I guess that you are probably right, but I am not fully convinced. I noticed some parallels between Misteray and Moriarty, though.

Just about every Holmes game is crap. Or a cop out like that Infocom game. I think that's partly because developers just make generic detective stories and slap a Holmes label on it. Then again, Holmes is a genius and a drug addict with a lot of other unlikable characteristics. That's a hard thing to build an interactive experience around.

Well, the EA Interactive Stories, espacially the Rose Tattoo were a big exception to that. They got te spirit of 1888 which was a big year, also in German history. Though Holmes drug addiction is not centered in the games, but his other likable and unlikable characteristics.

MeddlingMonk · Post by **MeddlingMonk** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:21 am

Nikioko wrote: Well, the EA Interactive Stories, espacially the Rose Tattoo were a big exception to that. They got te spirit of 1888 which was a big year, also in German history. Though Holmes drug addiction is not centered in the games, but his other likable and unlikable characteristics.

Agreed. Rose Tattoo is how it should be done.

The drug addiction thing is something that is often ignored, no matter the medium. It's always notable when it does come up (like the last line in the 1939 Hound movie which caused some controversy when it was released, or in the Grenada TV series). It comes up in various ways in Rose Tattoo as well. Holmes is not meant to be likable or to be identified with, so I tend to prefer things that play up his unsavory aspects at least a little bit. Like at the start of Rose Tattoo when Holmes is sulking in his room because of Mycroft's plight but still makes the effort to be rude to Watson.

It's kind of funny you bring up Germany, because there's something about the game that kind of annoys me. When Holmes confronts der Wachthund at the aerodrome, he keeps translating everything the German says when he replies. Of course that's necessary for everyone who doesn't understand German, but it makes the entire exchange irritatingly redundant for everyone who does. Other than that, I really like the historical stuff and especially because I know a little about the late Victorian period and the run-up to WWI. The latter, the political climate in the years before the war, forms the background of one of my favorite Holmes stories, The Bruce-Partington Plans, which I think is the primary inspiration for Rose Tattoo (stolen military secrets, Mycroft, a murdered clerk).

Nikioko · Post by **Nikioko** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:00 am

MeddlingMonk wrote: It's kind of funny you bring up Germany, because there's something about the game that kind of annoys me. When Holmes confronts der Wachthund at the aerodrome, he keeps translating everything the German says when he replies. Of course that's necessary for everyone who doesn't understand German, but it makes the entire exchange irritatingly redundant for everyone who does. Other than that, I really like the historical stuff and especially because I know a little about the late Victorian period and the run-up to WWI. The latter, the political climate in the years before the war, forms the background of one of my favorite Holmes stories, The Bruce-Partington Plans, which I think is the primary inspiration for Rose Tattoo (stolen military secrets, Mycroft, a murdered clerk).

Well, in the German version there is no such problem.

The funny thing about the game is, that, in retrospectivity, the roles of Bismarck and Wilhelm II are interchanged. Today, Bismarck is known as the architect of a whole boundle of pacts and treaties between the German Empire and European powers to isolate France to avoid retaliation. Wilhelm II's diplomatic skills were to poor that he broke up all those treaties except the one with Austria-Hungary which left the Central Powers very isolated a the beginning of the Great War. The treaty with Britain broke because of him building a fleet (for which we today still pay taxes on sparkling wine) which had no effect in WW I except the US entering it on the side of the Entente. Most historians agree that Germany wouldn't have broken up with Britain, if Wilhelm's father Friedrich III would have been emperor longer than just 99 days. About this interesting part of history, the intro of History Line 1914-18 is very recommendable. However, in that time, the young emperor might have been seen as a hope of new European politics after the Prussian Bismarck era. Unfortunately, greed and chauvinism of all European powers ended up in the Great War where all of them were soon desillusionated.
All in all, by then there were very interesting times as Holmes mentioned at the end of the game.

MeddlingMonk · Post by **MeddlingMonk** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:52 pm

Yeah, the positive portrayal of Wilhelm II is striking, particularly since he's still perceived through the lens of wartime Allied propaganda. But in the period the game is set, he would have been seen in a positive light if only because he wasn't Bismarck. Conan Doyle (and others) could see some kind of major conflict approaching and dreaded it, while most people went kind of insane when war actually broke out and were enthusiastic about it. Wilhelm II's diplomatic incompetence laid a lot of the groundwork for war, but of course he doesn't have sole responsibility. It was a stupid, pointless war and everyone was at fault. The game does a very good job at depicting the era before the war, and does a good job at getting Wilhelm II's reputation correct for that period. It's not often that a game really captures the feel of a time and a place in such an authentic way. It would be a big shame if ScummVM would never support it.

DrMcCoy · Post by **DrMcCoy** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:35 am

MeddlingMonk wrote:he keeps translating everything the German says when he replies

At least it's correct German and not like in Gabriel Knight 2...

garrythefish · Post by **garrythefish** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:08 am

Don't like to be a party pooper but this discussion isn't obeying Forum rule #14. There are tons of political questions raised in adventure games, and if we start here, there is no point having rule #14 anymore, if you catch my drift.

Nikioko · Post by **Nikioko** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:19 am

MeddlingMonk wrote:Wilhelm II's diplomatic incompetence laid a lot of the groundwork for war, but of course he doesn't have sole responsibility.

Well, his diplomatic incompetence led to breaking up the treaties between Germany and Russia as well as between Germany and Britain, which finally ended up in the Entente Cordiale which is astonishing, since Britain and France had lots of controversities concerning their colonies while Germany almost had no colonies. And with Britain and Germany on one side against France, the would definetely have had another progress. The responsibility for the war lies at all of the participants: their greed for colonial possessions and chauvinsm made them all think that war was a legitimate mean of diplomacy to show the own dominance. And afterwards, since the winners write the history, the losers were responsible.
But when it was about to start, Wilhelm hesitated to sing the declaration of war against his cousin George.
All in it was, as I said, interesting times.

DrMcCoy wrote:At least it's correct German and not like in Gabriel Knight 2...

I have seen lots of bad German. The terrorist in Die Hard or Kerner in the FoA talkie "Wo ist Fritz?"

garrythefish wrote: Don't like to be a party pooper but this discussion isn't obeying Forum rule #14. There are tons of political questions raised in adventure games, and if we start here, there is no point having rule #14 anymore, if you catch my drift.

First, we are discussing about history and historical correctness of games and not about current politics.
And second, we are discussion about the political situation how it is described in the historical setting of the Rose Tattoo and compare it to how it is being seen today. And there are quite some differences, which opens another question: is it just sloppy research of the game designers (which, measured by the rest of the game, I don't believe) or has the historical view changed by the time.
The game's strongest advantage is the historical correctness: Dewar and Able DID invent a new explosive called cordite which was a plagiate of Nobel's ballistite. The Kaiser was in Britain quite often, he was the grandson of Victoria and he disliked Bismarck. There were Irish terrorist who blew up things every now and then etc.
Like the novels, the game is fiction, but the historical background is correct in every detail. [/quote]

garrythefish · Post by **garrythefish** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:28 pm

Yes, of course, the game is quite historically accurate, but this kind of history is used in all sorts of todays political parties for historical revisionism, and for all sorts of propagranda even to this day and just saying its history doesn't mean squat, as a problematics has same weight like todays issuse and not to mention its the WWI, not so long ago, which was a turning point of civilization which is felt today in every single aspect of our lives.

As a student of the period, i know that many people would find questionable facts here, if you will, and this could easily spark a political discussion, as do every other kind of fixed history view point discussed, to promote the ideology of the writer or any other pushed view point, which must be discussed in a place that designated for such discussion and not in a open source video game project's forum. The views presented here have a purpose of their own, not because of your intentions but because of the intention of some historians and their home countries and political parties.

A word of advise, let's avoid such "controversial" aspects that are politically relavent this day of age and let's not dismiss this based on time, as in this case its just the same.

Longcat · Post by **Longcat** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:10 pm

Er.... I'm sorry, but that just sounds like overly sensitive nonsense to me.

garrythefish · Post by **garrythefish** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:23 pm

Jonatan wrote:Er.... I'm sorry, but that just sounds like overly sensitive nonsense to me.

Well, you can pretend not to understand as much you want, but you know there is something to it, you're just defensive about it. Rule #14 is violated and if there were different actors involved it would be intervined. This biased pragmatism doesn't serve the project, nor does make the violation less real and only makes place for further hypocracy. Its irrelavent as to if I'm excessively sensitivity or not. To a reasonable person the only thing that should be relavent are the principles at hand.

Plus, my first post was a reminder so that stuff don't get out of hand, so it doesn't become a historical-political discussion. I'm suprised how you are making a fuss about it, like i suddenly hit someone's weak sensitive spot or something, and then you guys start to get personal which isn't ok at all. Let's make it forum about the ScummVM and its games, and not about the petty politics of some of the stuff remotely connected with it. I most passionately want that to happen.

Longcat · Post by **Longcat** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:05 pm

Well, if I knew there was something to it I wouldn't pretend anything at all. I haven't even participated in the aforementioned discussion. So far, the only person who seems to have taken offence at anything is you, and while I agree that is not a good thing I still think it's overly sensitive. Saying things like "let's not discuss history because it might offend someone" sounds a bit totalitarian to me.

Sticks and stones may break my bones and so on. This is the junkyard after all, and I disagree that it has turned into a political discussion, it is related to a game after all. If you take offence at it, I suggest not reading it;)

garrythefish · Post by **garrythefish** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:03 pm

And you are playing possum yet again and this time you are attributing some words to me, something I haven't said, and which is hardly fair of you: "let's not discuss history because it might offend someone" . And I have found a sensitive spot (not my intention), again it seems when you mentioned that part.

When "my" statement is associated to totalitarianism, an aspect of which is brought here to discussion by me and am passionately against in the previous posts, i see only a unconscious projection of owns flaws, which doesn't have anything to do with and but have made to the surface by certain contemplative results.

I'll repeat what I wrote earlier or at least the things had the intention to make clear in the first place.

The only offensive thing for to me personally is the fact that we have a political discussion on the forum and one of the 15 rules strictly is against it and someone out of comfort and personal favour, fails to intervene. And I continue:

It starts to be political when historical interpretation is creatively packed and altered in such a way to promote certain fixed view points and promotes certain political views, and ones presented are ideologically biased. And as a cherry on the top, such interpretation are not only presented here, but discussed also.

If it were only facts it would be fair, if it was only about the game, it would be acceptable.

We are discussing recent political interpretation of history, a comparing it to the one in game that isn't even supported in scummvm.

"Overly emotional" isn't an form argumentation, every way you look at it, and it's silly, and my guess is that it is there to devalue someones statements on the basis of a perceived social vice which is highly subjective to be considered in this form of judgement, and that is of law of sort of the forum.

Longcat · Post by **Longcat** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:05 pm

Complain to a moderator then. That's what they are for.

And stop complaining about me attributing you things you haven't said and making it personal. I never called you totalitarian. You just said I was pretending not to understand you and calling me defensive yourself, it's hardly different. No statement is objective, like it or not;)