Loom in 16 undithered colours or B&W?

[pmaciel]

I own Loom in the Steam (256 colours) and also the Mac version, which I initially played in B/W (SE/30) and later in 16 colours. Since the B&W and 16 colours version are hardcoded in my memories, I have two questions:

- in 16 colours (Loom Mac version) would it be possible to use undithering outside of the SCI engine? I don't own any SCI game but I have seen screenshots and they do look impressive... and Loom is full of dithering everywhere.

- is it possible to try Loom in B&W using ScummVM? Or is it colours only? (I just want to remember the oooold days) Well, if the B&W could also be undithered, that would be some really new experience! :-)

Just for the complete experience. And thanks for the great work, too! :-)

[clone2727]

- in 16 colours (Loom Mac version) would it be possible to use undithering outside of the SCI engine? I don't own any SCI game but I have seen screenshots and they do look impressive... and Loom is full of dithering everywhere.

No. The SCI "undithering" is specific to the way SCI draws EGA images.

- is it possible to try Loom in B&W using ScummVM? Or is it colours only? (I just want to remember the oooold days) Well, if the B&W could also be undithered, that would be some really new experience!

Maybe if someone implements it. However, this isn't actually part of the engine and is really a part of QuickDraw which would dither the image down to black and white (if that's all the hardware would allow).

We don't even support Loom Mac's high-res font. If you want the black and white feel, you're probably better off using something like Mini vMac.

[pmaciel]

Comparing the B&W version in Mini vMac and the Mac 16 colours in ScummVM, it seems to me that the dithering happening there is somehow smart, maybe something like that SCI trick with two colours in the same CLUT entry? It looks "high resolution", or at least not based in the colour of one pixel alone (the closest big rocks and the path just behind it?)



Well if the dithering does come from QuickDraw, then it makes more sense to implement it as a graphic filter instead? I followed the discussion over the SCI undithering, and fidelity to the original game is the important factor, so B&W colour dithering would also be good enough for consideration? :-)

Indeed, it's a pity the Mac font not being supported. But why not, since the "Loom(tm)" application needs to be in there to read the instruments? Reading the font resource can't be complicated. I was hoping one day that "real" fonts (TrueType?) would be supported one day for every game, but that's even more far fetched than the dithering.

PS: I now play my Steam version by patching the sources, but this 256 color mode is actually full of gradients everywhere and doesn't seem to give the solid color looks of the 16 color mode (which is how I remember Loom best). That, and the font, indeed. I suppose I'm just giving reasons to start developing...[/quote]

[pmaciel]

Ah now I notice, the cursor too...

[clone2727]

Comparing the B&W version in Mini vMac and the Mac 16 colours in ScummVM, it seems to me that the dithering happening there is somehow smart, maybe something like that SCI trick with two colours in the same CLUT entry? It looks "high resolution", or at least not based in the colour of one pixel alone (the closest big rocks and the path just behind it?)

Doesn't look like anything special to me. QuickDraw is pretty smart about dithering.

Well if the dithering does come from QuickDraw, then it makes more sense to implement it as a graphic filter instead?

One could implement it as a filter, yes.

Indeed, it's a pity the Mac font not being supported. But why not, since the "Loom(tm)" application needs to be in there to read the instruments? Reading the font resource can't be complicated.

As usual, it's because no one programmed it yet.

Ah now I notice, the cursor too...

There is a CURS resource in the binary too, it may use that.

[eriktorbjorn]

We don't even support Loom Mac's high-res font. If you want the black and white feel, you're probably better off using something like Mini vMac.

The high-res font is probably the most important missing feature at the moment, because the last time I played the Mac version (and I have no reason to believe it has changed since then) the text got truncated in a couple of scenes.

[clone2727]

The high-res font is probably the most important missing feature at the moment, because the last time I played the Mac version (and I have no reason to believe it has changed since then) the text got truncated in a couple of scenes.

I think it's the only real "missing feature" of Loom Mac right now. Indy3 Mac is another story.

[pmaciel]

I've just setup Loom Mac in SheepShaver, and compared to ScummVM, the colour palette is brighter? I'm running in OS X.

In ScummVM:


In the emulator:




I'm nitpicking, I know.[/img]

[eriktorbjorn]

I've just setup Loom Mac in SheepShaver, and compared to ScummVM, the colour palette is brighter? I'm running in OS X.

I don't know about SheepShaver, but in Basilisk II that seems to be something that the emulator does by itself. There, the dialog that lets me choose screen resolution also lets me choose between "Mac HiRes Std Gamma"...

loom-stdgamma.png (4.78 KiB) Viewed 14956 times

... and "Uncorrected Gamma".

loom-uncorrected.png (4.79 KiB) Viewed 14956 times

The "Mac HiRes Std Gamma" setting appears to be hard-coded in the emulator. The "Uncorrected Gamma" image is close enough to what ScummVM shows that I can't tell them apart just by looking at them.

Someone, I forget who, explained to me that Mac and PC monitors at least used to behave a bit different, so maybe it's to compensate for that?

(There is also a palette resource in the Loom application that we don't use, but using it didn't help.)

[pmaciel]

Alright, I now have way more information I came for! Thanks!

I'm still looking for the most "realistic" Mac experience that I remember, so I might just try it for myself. I've seen Mac cursors are loaded for HE games (maybe it's just one game, I found it in the sources). This seems the easiest of the three (cursor, font and B&W dithering).

[eriktorbjorn]

Eight years later, there have been some improvements. I need to do some further testing before I submit a pull request, but hopefully it should appear in the development version soon.

loom-text.png (10.65 KiB) Viewed 14958 times

I haven't implemented the whole Mac GUI for Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (ask me again in another eight years), but the replacement GUI works fine.

indy3-text.png (8.45 KiB) Viewed 14958 times

Note that this only applies to the original, 16-color Macintosh versions of the games. The Macintosh versions that are sold on Steam are later ports of the 256-color versions. In both cases, ScummVM needs the original executable so that it can read the resources for the high-resolution fonts. For Loom it also reads the cursor and music resources. Indy 3 didn't seem to have a cursor resource so I've hard-coded one, and its music is played through some AdLib emulation that probably doesn't sound right at all. I have no knowledge of how to fix that.

Edit: I've submitted a pull request. It turns out I hadn't handled the way games can remap colors in the palette (e.g. to do the lightning flashes around Castle Brunwald in Last Crusade), but that should be sorted out now.

[MusicallyInspired]

Nice work!

[eriktorbjorn]

The pull request was just merged, so I guess the next nightly build should have this feature. I want to stress again that so far it only applies to the 16-color Macintosh versions of Loom and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Perhaps someone will add it for other games later, where it makes sense, but it's a bit more involved than just flipping a switch. (E.g. there were Mac versions of the AGI games that could run in black and white, but it appears Sierra used a different dithering method than LucasArts did.)

When I compared to the original behavior (or as original as the Mini vMac emulator would give me), I noticed that the original games did not seem to handle palette manipulations, e.g. the lightning flashes in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. The emulated Mac had a smaller screen, which is why the image is cropped here, but apparently it was possible to run it in black and white on Macs with larger screens as well:

indycastle-minivmac.gif (11.71 KiB) Viewed 14958 times

And here is the same scene in ScummVM. I think it's an improvement:

indycastle-scummvm.gif (94.12 KiB) Viewed 14958 times

It's also used in a scene in Loom, but posting that screenshot would be a bit of a spoiler so if you want to see it, check the pull request.

[Blakes7]

Seeing these games in black & white makes it look noirish. I like it.

[eriktorbjorn]

Another two years, and two things have changed:

• ScummVM now has easy access to the classic Mac fonts.
• I got tired of having to caveat everything I say about Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade with "but it's not implemented yet".

So there's now another pull request, this time for implementing the verb GUI for the Mac version of Last Crusade. Before:

before.png (20.56 KiB) Viewed 13779 times

After:

after.png (20.98 KiB) Viewed 13779 times

There are still things that won't be implemented - at least not yet - but it should still mean that the teeming hordes of ScummVM users who are playing the 16 color Macintosh version of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (there must be at least, what... Three? Four? ) will soon be able to have a much more authentic experience.