*sad update* ESRGAN AI Upscaling (ScummVM fork and tools pulled from github by author)

[Veda]

The problem is the same I said: access to the original assets (and "overload" it in ScummVM).

At the moment could't be make in real time (you will get some weird results on characters this way), as you need CUDA cores and takes some seconds, doesn't makes senses versus pre-render.

There are already open source tools that can extract the resources for Scumm games, for example:

https://quickandeasysoftware.net/softwa ... -revisited

Not sure about Touche.

And the tools the recompress the original audio do the same thing: extract resources (audio in that case) and recompress it.

For sure I was thinking about pre-render, not real time. We could use the Extra folder which is already available...

About James soundtrack: as far as I understand (but I may be wrong) what ScummVM does is support additional tracks using certain names (i.e. track1, track2 etc.) but it doesn't check in any way if those tracks are exactly the ones from James.

If that's the case, what if someone else makes his version of the music without asking the original IP owners like James did? Would that be a copyright break?

Moreover, recently ScummVM introduced the possibility of using external tracks in EGA Loom; there's also a tutorial on how to create those tracks from a Swan Lake CD release. What about that? Shouldn't that encourage pirating as well?

BTW, I don't want to generate any flame, I'm just trying to understand the matter.

[criezy]

Moreover, recently ScummVM introduced the possibility of using external tracks in EGA Loom; there's also a tutorial on how to create those tracks from a Swan Lake CD release. What about that? Shouldn't that encourage pirating as well?

That CD is available to buy in various places. We also support using external music tracks for some Humongous Entertainment games, as they are available to buy on the bandcamp of the original composer.

I think the idea is that if that "remastered" content can be acquired legally by players, and does not require changes that are too invasive in ScummVM, then we are open to supporting it.

[Veda]

That CD is available to buy in various places. We also support using external music tracks for some Humongous Entertainment games, as they are available to buy on the bandcamp of the original composer.

I think the idea is that if that "remastered" content can be acquired legally by players, and does not require changes that are too invasive in ScummVM, then we are open to supporting it.

Ok, I understand. But at this point I see 2 different issues:

1) copyright: is the content legally available? I believe that if the content can be generated starting from the original resources (which you would need from the start if you want to play the game) using a script/ESRGAN A.I. ... You are not breaking copyright. One could argue that even if you simply recompress the original audio resources to MP3/OGG/FLAC/whatever... you are generating new resources from the original ones. The same goes for Monkey Island Talkie, in which I believe also some scripts are modified (Stump Joke?), not to mention the support for the improved 3D models for Grim Fandango (they are created by fans and not from the original authors, so you cannot "legally acquire" them so to speak. And as far as I know they didn't contact the original Grim Fandango authors... also because an official Special Edition has been released, which further complicate things).

2) adding support to ScummVM: of course that's a big issue, but as long as copyright is not a problem, and the team is open to the modification, some people could decide to start implementing it... I believe someone in the past already release a modified version on GitHub for Sierra games.

[criezy]

We tend to be extra careful as we want to maintain a good relationship with copyright holders, who can in some cases help us by providing the original source code of their games. And we also want to avoid any possible legal issues that could lead to the project being shut down.

I think distributing scripts and trained models to let players generate the upscaled backgrounds from their original copy of the game is fine from a legal perspective. Of course that requires some work from each player, so if the copyright holders allow redistribution of those upscaled assets, that would make them more easily accessible to players.

[sev]

Veda, what is the goal of your questions? Expose the project? Prove that I am ignorant? Force us to support these patches? Do you think it will work?


Eugene

[Veda]

First of all, I said that I didn’t want to start any flames...

Second, I think that I asked my questions more than politely...

Third, I just wanted to understand why similar mods are supported, while there seem to be a strong opposition on this one... Because yes, I would like this to be supported.

I don’t see the need to be so aggressive about this. Why do you take it personally?

Did I attack you in any way?

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't feel like Veda was being antagonistic at all. Perhaps a language barrier is a factor at worst here causing a miscommunication in tone?

[Veda]

Just saw this other topic under Help and support:

viewtopic.php?p=97776&sid=7af5725ee1b3c ... c0e#p97776

which points to this PR:

https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/4543

So, I guess that a script that generates the upscales from the original files without including any of such files should be ok... Am I correct?

Hope this doesn't offend anyone.

[Praetorian]

Hello,
Criezy already responded on this, here:

I think distributing scripts and trained models to let players generate the upscaled backgrounds from their original copy of the game is fine from a legal perspective. Of course that requires some work from each player, so if the copyright holders allow redistribution of those upscaled assets, that would make them more easily accessible to players.

and here:

I think the idea is that if that "remastered" content can be acquired legally by players, and does not require changes that are too invasive in ScummVM, then we are open to supporting it.

Also, just to clarify, ScummVM cannot be associated with piracy at all. The project leaders and the team set rules to prevent that. Nobody wants another misunderstanding getting out of hand, leading to letters from legal departments of the copyright holders. Situations like these put high stress on the team and could outright kill the project.

So, when ScummVM is brought up in a context of piracy, it's always a very VERY sensitive and crucial matter; it's not something to be written or taken lightly. Therefore, conjuring up hypothetical situations leading to questions such as "wouldn't that break copyright?", "Shouldn't that encourage pirating as well?" is quite a serious allegation to be made only to lead to a point for basically "then why not do this too?". Please understand what is written here, and refrain from pressing the matter further in this direction.

The safest route to take, of course, would be to absolutely and without exceptions cut off anything that is not faithful engine reverse-implementation work. That is not what's happening, though. We are keeping an eye on fan-made community projects, and are happy to see people working out of love for their favorite games, put in their free time and make progress achieving wonderful results. Sometimes devs from the team lead or participate in such work. And we do often discuss for possible ways to integrate and/or accommodate these efforts within the ScummVM project -- again criezy basically explains our current approach.

[Kasenshlogga]

Hello,
Criezy already responded on this, here:

I think distributing scripts and trained models to let players generate the upscaled backgrounds from their original copy of the game is fine from a legal perspective. Of course that requires some work from each player, so if the copyright holders allow redistribution of those upscaled assets, that would make them more easily accessible to players.

and here:

I think the idea is that if that "remastered" content can be acquired legally by players, and does not require changes that are too invasive in ScummVM, then we are open to supporting it.

Also, just to clarify, ScummVM cannot be associated with piracy at all. The project leaders and the team set rules to prevent that. Nobody wants another misunderstanding getting out of hand, leading to letters from legal departments of the copyright holders. Situations like these put high stress on the team and could outright kill the project.

So, when ScummVM is brought up in a context of piracy, it's always a very VERY sensitive and crucial matter; it's not something to be written or taken lightly. Therefore, conjuring up hypothetical situations leading to questions such as "wouldn't that break copyright?", "Shouldn't that encourage pirating as well?" is quite a serious allegation to be made only to lead to a point for basically "then why not do this too?". Please understand what is written here, and refrain from pressing the matter further in this direction.

The safest route to take, of course, would be to absolutely and without exceptions cut off anything that is not faithful engine reverse-implementation work. That is not what's happening, though. We are keeping an eye on fan-made community projects, and are happy to see people working out of love for their favorite games, put in their free time and make progress achieving wonderful results. Sometimes devs from the team lead or participate in such work. And we do often discuss for possible ways to integrate and/or accommodate these efforts within the ScummVM project -- again criezy basically explains our current approach.

I think you're confusing modding with piracy. The Longest Journey HD for example which runs on ScummVM (previously ResidualVM) is available on ModDB. The download doesn't contain any original game files, only those which have been modified. If it was piracy, ModDB wouldn't be hosting that file.

[Praetorian]

I think you're confusing modding with piracy. The Longest Journey HD for example which runs on ScummVM (previously ResidualVM) is available on ModDB. The download doesn't contain any original game files, only those which have been modified. If it was piracy, ModDB wouldn't be hosting that file.

No, that's not it. I am responding to the recent messages and the confusion about offense.

It has nothing to do with the Longest Journey HD work. Longest Journey HD is another discussion altogether, the details of which I am not very familiar with.

[Veda]

Hi Pretorian and Criezy,

I understand your point, and thanks for your detailed explanation.

I just want to clarify that it was not my intention to associate the project to piracy; in fact, imho supporting external assets that are not distributed but recreated from the original ones shouldn’t break any copyright... but I admit I am no lawyer.

I only asked because from previous posts it was implied that “add relevant code just to support such assets as that could be considered as condoning piracy“... And I didn’t understand this point.

[nachazo]

Hello all again. I really think that a upscaled "fan remaster mod" from Touché is possible and could be nice. So I wanna post here some more upscaled results comparison for encourage everyone and to "not forget" this possibility

https://ibb.co/album/d45GF9

So, obviously I would need more experienced help and have some questions, needing the opinion from ScummVM devs, as they know this world by far much more than everybody (and could determine if it's possible or not, in various aspects). And, of course as there are changes and knowledge about ScummVM, his "ok", participation and approval.

About last polemic messages about modding, legal stuff, using assets...: I totally respect the ScummVM devs decisions (because a lot of reasons - they know and have the experience about what are doing). So I will wait to it's opinion and answer to various topics in this post.


So, here are the problems/questions:

- Technical doubts: About obtaining original assets and "overload edited", posted in my previous message (viewtopic.php?p=97756#p97756) and also at the end of this post itself.

- Legal topics: I talked with James Woodcock (enhanced soundtrack creator) asking contact with game owners. Sadly, his contact was the original music composer, who has sadly passed away a few years ago.

So, as get permission is a requirement, how we could contact and talk with actual owners? As far I could research "US Gold" publisher are bought by "Eidos Interactive" (as Clipper Software dissapeared).
Also, here is the whole credits list of the original devs & authors: https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/touc ... er/credits
Maybe some of them still are localizable at internet.
So, what could be done? Any of these people could give his "ok" to a fan remaster?


As I was thinking in some "possible" changes, here are things I wrote as "Touché: Fan Remaster" mod objectives (also for communicate with owners and know how aspects could be researched):

a. "I think it's possible"
1. Improve original backgrounds with AI upscaled with Real-ESGRAN.
2. Manual graphic edits and fixes to AI upscaled backgrounds.
3. Upscale original characters and manual edit the bad-artifacted AI result.
4. Editing & improve original voice acting audios, converting to stereo, cleaning dirty sound and making better.
5. Ask for permission to add credited the improved OST (https://www.pixelrefresh.com/touche-the ... r-scummvm/).
6. Improve ambiance sounds with open-source or editing/improved ones.

b. "Maybe it's possible"
1. Upscale original objects (that like the characters aren't part of painted backgrounds) if are images and not sprites. Making it fit and sense in the final result.
2. Manual edit some upscaled background to make some differences, respecting structures, between taverns and stables from different cities (common critic about the game).
3. Add more background ambiance sounds (for cities, crowds...) with open-source or hand made sounds.
4. Improve character animations, adding more steps to them, if the engine supports more steps (maybe with help of interpolation technics).
5. Replace/improve font, if it's an image used with coordinates (as I suppose) and not sprites.
6. If UI elements are images, improve here and there (action menu, main menu...).

c. "Don't know, depending on the engine"
1. Adding option for moving fast LeBrun, pressing double-click (like last MI) (another common critic - actually with F9-F10).
2. Convert to 16:9 (it's possible with the upscaled backgrounds).
3. Visual UI edits, maybe adding some transparent parts to UI image even maybe hiding it and showing with a menu or hotkey like modern graphic adventures.
4. Main menu. Players tend to press ESC and miss the intro. Maybe something like the option modal with a background before start.

PS.: I'm an 15 years experienced developer (not games) and graphics editor.

[Raziel]

@nachazo

That.looks.amazing

/me fan
/me want

[Veda]

@nachazo

Impressive indeed!!!