Loom CD - errors?

[laffer]

I just tried making an image of Loom and I got read errors.. so I bought another Loom CD on eBay but got read errors on that CD too at the exact same location. I realize that some games use read errors as copy protection, but isn't Loom a little old to use that?

Anyway, has anyone else encountered this? Is this error supposed to be there?

Thanks

[eriktorbjorn]

I just tried making an image of Loom and I got read errors.. so I bought another Loom CD on eBay but got read errors on that CD too at the exact same location. I realize that some games use read errors as copy protection, but isn't Loom a little old to use that?

Anyway, has anyone else encountered this? Is this error supposed to be there?

Thanks

I haven't heard anything about that before, though I've never tried to make an image of the CD. I simply copied the data files (about 4 MB) and ripped the audio track (which is what takes up most of the space on the CD) as described in the ScummVM README.

[clem]

maybe it's the CD drive? did you try it on some other computer?

clem

[laffer]

Yes I tried it on another computer too.. and I got yet another Loom CD from eBay and that one also has errors at the exact same spot! All three CDs are completely free of scractches, are bought from different sellers and have errors at the exact same sector.
I can copy the files on the CD to the harddrive and make an MP3 of the audio track without getting any errors though.. weird.

Btw, I finally got that audio drama CD too hehe.. been looking for that for quite a while.

[cappuchok]

Sounds like a mastering error to me. At the time Loom CD was made, purposely made errors as a copy protection mechanism was probably totally unknown (and is still frowned upon by Philips as it violates the CD-ROM specs). But a mastering error could pass undetected if it didn't affect the actual use of the disc and thereby could propagate to thousands of disks quite easily.

LucasArts does have a long and proud history of encouraging their users to take backups of the game media (there used to be a "howto" in all their manuals), so I think it is safe to say that it is not a purposely introduced error.

Also, there's the format of the image to take into consideration. You can't make an .ISO image from a mixed-mode (data+audio) disc, so depending on your program, it might throw an error if you're trying to build an ISO from that disc. Use .BIN or some other raw format instead.

[laffer]

I'm not trying to make an ISO of course, I've made tons of images so I feel I know how to that right at least

Perhaps it is a mastering error then.. but it's on all my three CDs at the exact same spot so I won't buy any more of them (they can be expensive too in mint condition).. they work fine and I can copy all the files on the CD to the harddrive and also make an MP3 of the audio track without getting any errors.. it's just when trying to make an image I get that error (and in CD checks and stuff). It's weird that I don't get an error when I copy the files and make an MP3 of the audio eh? Weird stuff but they work perfectly and have no scratches on them either so that's good enough.

Oh another thing - when I try to run the game from the CD, sometimes in the game speech goes missing and some sounds too.. but if I make an MP3 of the soundtrack and use that in ScummVM everything works perfectly. Anyone know why?

[eriktorbjorn]

Oh another thing - when I try to run the game from the CD, sometimes in the game speech goes missing and some sounds too.. but if I make an MP3 of the soundtrack and use that in ScummVM everything works perfectly. Anyone know why?

I don't know for certain, but I can make a guess. Playing a sound, whether it's from CD or from file, is a non-blocking operation, that is to say the game script requests that the sound be started, and then immediately continues with the next instruction while the sound is playing "in the background".

When playing from the CD it can take a little while for the player to "spin up" to full speed, which makes the sound take longer than the game script may have anticipated. A new sound may be played before the old one has finished, or possibly even before it has started. An MP3 file has much lower latency than a CD-ROM, so there the risk of one sound starting before the previous one has finished is smaller.

It is possible for a script to "wait until the current sound has finished playing", but it probably only does that in some cases. I seem to recall that the original interpreter had the same problem, but it's been a long time since I tried it.

[cappuchok]

Perhaps it is a mastering error then.. but it's on all my three CDs at the exact same spot so I won't buy any more of them (they can be expensive too in mint condition).. they work fine and I can copy all the files on the CD to the harddrive and also make an MP3 of the audio track without getting any errors.. it's just when trying to make an image I get that error (and in CD checks and stuff). It's weird that I don't get an error when I copy the files and make an MP3 of the audio eh? Weird stuff but they work perfectly and have no scratches on them either so that's good enough.

A mastering error could theoretically exist on every copy of a disc, or on every copy in a batch, depending on the process. The reason you only get the error when reading an image and not while copying files or ripping the audio is that the error exists outside of the actual filesystem, which also accounts for it not being detected at the factory. Most likely the error is in the lead-in, or in some empty space between the lead-in and the actual filesystem, much like the intentional errors on an old Safedisc CD.

[laffer]

That's probably it. Anyway, I just finished the game over and it's not as good as I remembered.. the story is interesting enough and that stick and all is original, but it's one of the shortest and easiest adventure games I've ever played.. I think I would've felt ripped off if I bought that game new back then.

[clem]

That's probably it. Anyway, I just finished the game over and it's not as good as I remembered.. the story is interesting enough and that stick and all is original, but it's one of the shortest and easiest adventure games I've ever played.. I think I would've felt ripped off if I bought that game new back then.

never played loom, I wasn't impressed with the length of Full Throttle though - that one seemed like a longer demo to me

MI2 and Atlantis are prime examples of how much gaming they could put into ~ 10mb.

clem

[cappuchok]

Refresh my memory: the CD version of Loom was cut short compared to the floppy version, right? Only ever played the EGA version (with glorious MT-32 music) but I think I've heard something about some puzzles (and a lot of dialogue) being cut from the CD version due to lack of space.

[eriktorbjorn]

Refresh my memory: the CD version of Loom was cut short compared to the floppy version, right? Only ever played the EGA version (with glorious MT-32 music) but I think I've heard something about some puzzles (and a lot of dialogue) being cut from the CD version due to lack of space.

It's been a while since I played Loom but I don't remember any puzzles being cut from the CD version. Much of the dialogue has been rewritten; usually shortened, but in at least one case a scene was expanded. Most of the character close-ups from the floppy version are missing in the CD version, though again at least one was added.

[laffer]

Well, the CD version takes about two hours to finish if you've never played it before. All the puzzles are so easy that I doubt anyone here would be stuck for more than ten seconds or so on any of them.

Anyway, I guess I should play the floppy version then if it's so different.. I got that in that Lucasarts collection with Indy 3, Maniac Mansion, Zak, MI1 floppy and Loom floppy in it.
Would be interesting to see the changes.

[cappuchok]

There's a patch for the floppy version available on LucasArts' support site that will add Roland MT-32 music to the game, I really recommend you to apply it if you have a Soundblaster AWE32 with some RAM, or a real MT-32. It'll make you forget that the visuals are only 16 colors.

[eriktorbjorn]

There's a patch for the floppy version available on LucasArts' support site that will add Roland MT-32 music to the game, I really recommend you to apply it if you have a Soundblaster AWE32 with some RAM, or a real MT-32. It'll make you forget that the visuals are only 16 colors.

And of course, this is my cue for boring everyone to tears by pointing out that you can also get a good recording of the music by buying a copy of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake ballet. You can probably find most on it on a "highlights from" record, as well.

I've tried to match the Loom music to my Naxos release of the ballet, Such a list will, of course, by necessity contain some spoilers. You have been warned:

• The Overture (only in the Roland patch). This theme appears in a couple of places, but the closest matches are probably at the very beginning and the very end Act II as The swans swim on the lake and Odette and the Swans return to the lake respectively.
• The title music appears in Act I as the beginning (Intrada) of Pas de trois, A young man and two girls from the Prince's entourage.
• The music for Hetchel's confrontation with the Elders appears in Act IV as Dance of the Cygnets.
• The Crystalgard music appears in Act II as Dance of the Swans (which is part of a much longer track which is also called Dance of the Swans.)
• The music for the shepherds, the dragon's first appearence, and for the caves beyond her lair, are both from Act I, Pas d'action, Dance of the Drunken Courtier Wolfgang.
• The blacksmiths's music appears in Act I as the fourth part (Moderato) of Pas de trois.
• The clerics's music appears in Act I as the second part (Andante sostenuto) of Pas de trois.
• The music for the final confrontation appears, appropriately, at the end of Act IV, the Finale.

Did I miss any? Some of the music is used several times during the game. I only listed what I believe is its first appearence in the game, and I only listened to the floppy version.