CD Versions

[speedstar]

hey
if i have some titles in CD Versions but will copy only data files without MONSTER file.
will it still works fine or will crash without this one?
i dont have floppy versions.
games are original.

i'm asking because i use Pocket ScummVM.

thnx

EDIT1:
bonus question: does MONSTER file always contains only speech? or there are some titles that has sfx in it?

[eriktorbjorn]

I believe the games will work without the monster.sou file, and that this file can contain sound effects as well as speech.

But I can't test at the moment, so you're probably in a better position than I am to find out.

[speedstar]

looks like in Indiana Jones And The Fate Of Atlantis, sfx are in data files.
but when i tried Sam & Max and Day Of The Tentacle... then i can hear only MIDI soundtrack, no sfx

so, here is another question.
i will copy MONSTER from floppy ver, will it work?
i checked, and data files are not the same.

thnx

[spacetroll]

Fate of Atlantis has MIDI sfx APART FROM the enhanced sound and voice from the CD version. This is probably what you are hearing. Sam & Max and DOTT, however, being later games, have all SFX and voice in MONSTER.SOU. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the case.

[clem]

so, here is another question.
i will copy MONSTER from floppy ver, will it work?
i checked, and data files are not the same.

I doubt it - plus, if you also own the floppy versions, why mess with the CD versions at all when the only in-game difference would be the speech?

[PsYcO]

when the only in-game difference would be the speech?

seems like a good enough reason to me

[clem]

when the only in-game difference would be the speech?

seems like a good enough reason to me

no, I mean:
- he says he has the CD versions but can't copy the speech/MONSTER.SOU (so they basically offer the functionality of the floppy versions)
- he asks if he can mix the MONSTER.SOU of the floppy versions with the gfx/data of the CD version (so I presume he also owns the full floppy versions)
- why go through that when (even if it worked) the CD datafiles + floppy sounds are functionally equivalent to a "normal" floppy version?

[eriktorbjorn]

Fate of Atlantis has MIDI sfx APART FROM the enhanced sound and voice from the CD version. This is probably what you are hearing. Sam & Max and DOTT, however, being later games, have all SFX and voice in MONSTER.SOU. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the case.

Come to think of it, Fate of Atlantis might also have some digitized sound effects in the data files, the same way Monkey Island 2 has. I seem to recall that the sounds during the fight scenes changed a bit at the same time support for the MI2 sounds was added.

[eriktorbjorn]

so, here is another question.
i will copy MONSTER from floppy ver, will it work?

From what I understand, when playing a sound from monster.sou the script has to know exactly at what position in the file the sound starts. So taking the monster.sou file from one game and trying to use it in another will almost certainly never work.

[Arantor]

... the script has to know exactly at what position in the file the sound starts. So taking the monster.sou file from one game and trying to use it in another will almost certainly never work.

I think there is some kind of index at the start of the MONSTER.SOU file to specify the position of each sample, e.g. the SCUMM script says to play sample 143 and it looks up where 143 starts in the SOU file...

It must be driven by the contents of the MONSTER.SOU file because you can still compress it (e.g. compress to MP3 or OGG) which would mess up all of the pointers. Since the compress tools don't touch game data, only the SOU file, there must be some kind of index there.

I think if you were to play mix 'n' match, it'd work right up to the point where ScummVM tried to play a sample that wouldn't be found in the smaller SOU file and fail with whatever the 'sample not found' error is. (I haven't looked at the code, though, I couldn't possibly say for certain, nor do I have a copy of the floppy SOU files to try it out with)

[eriktorbjorn]

I think there is some kind of index at the start of the MONSTER.SOU file to specify the position of each sample, e.g. the SCUMM script says to play sample 143 and it looks up where 143 starts in the SOU file...

The compressed versions of monster.sou has an index to convert from the original offset to the offset into the compressed file. As far as I can tell, the original file doesn't have any such thing.

I think if you were to play mix 'n' match, it'd work right up to the point where ScummVM tried to play a sample that wouldn't be found in the smaller SOU file and fail with whatever the 'sample not found' error is. (I haven't looked at the code, though, I couldn't possibly say for certain, nor do I have a copy of the floppy SOU files to try it out with)

You're assuming that all he sounds in the smaller file appear at the same offsets in the larger file, i.e. that they're stored at the beginning of the larger file, in the same order and at the same sound quality.

That could be, but I wouldn't count on it. Since I don't have any of the floppy versions, I can't check.

[Arantor]

The compressed versions of monster.sou has an index to convert from the original offset to the offset into the compressed file. As far as I can tell, the original file doesn't have any such thing.

I don't know how it works, I never actually examined the file, but a while back I was playing with the file in an audio editor, and loaded the whole file in, as it's essentially a 22KHz sample (the exact settings you use elude me but 22KHz 8bit seems the order of the day)

When I did that, I found a blip of non-audio data at the start of the sample which from them until today I assumed was a kind of index file, stating which samples could be located where.

You're assuming that all he sounds in the smaller file appear at the same offsets in the larger file, i.e. that they're stored at the beginning of the larger file, in the same order and at the same sound quality.

That could be, but I wouldn't count on it. Since I don't have any of the floppy versions, I can't check.

I don't think they're not in the same order; IIRC the first few samples in Sam 'n' Max's MONSTER.SOU are the possible answerphone messages, whereas the only samples in the floppy version are those needed for the intro.

I assumed that the index in MONSTER.SOU specified which samples were present where so the same SCUMM files could be used to point to the samples in the MONSTER.SOU, and that different offsets would direct to the locations of the files wherever they might be.

My logic was that if ScummVM tried to reference one of these samples that isn't present in the smaller SOU, it'd fail because as far as it's concerned, it *should* be there.

Then again... going by the above logic, I should have thought it wouldn't make a difference, it'd still run because I can't imagine the principle game data being different, just the executable's handling of missing samples (floppy version should ignore it, CD version should not...?)

I'm only hypothesising based on how I would have done it... I may be completely wrong!

[eriktorbjorn]

I don't know how it works, I never actually examined the file, but a while back I was playing with the file in an audio editor, and loaded the whole file in, as it's essentially a 22KHz sample (the exact settings you use elude me but 22KHz 8bit seems the order of the day)

Judgning by the compression tool, the monster.sou file begins with an eight-byte header - the letters "SOU " and four bytes of zeroes - followed by an arbitrary number of "parts".

Each part also has an eight-byte header: The letters "VCTL" or "VTTL", and a four-byte big-endian number that indicates how many bytes to skip (including the eight-byte header) before getting to the actual sound. I think this data is some sort of optional lip-sync information. After that comes the sound itself, in the form of a Creative Voice file.

When the game prints a message, in addition to the text it can contain any of a number of formatting codes: line breaks, text colour, etc... and sound. One of the things it extracts from the message is an offset to the sound.

If it's a compressed monster.sou file, it translates the offset. Otherwise, it simply adds 8 (to skip the eight-byte header, I presume). It then reads the sound at that offset.

Again, I see no indication of any index in the original monster.sou.

[Arantor]

I guess I just assumed it would be indexed... in which case if it is not indexed, you would not be able to play mix 'n' match with the SOU files, since the datafiles would have to refer to the relevant contents of MONSTER.SOU.